Watch and Learn - Elizabeth Kolbert - The Climate Crisis & “Life on a Little-Known Planet"

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It's so nice to see you again.

It's so nice to see you again

>> Likewise.

>> Likewise

>> The last time that we spoke, you had

>> The last time that we spoke you had

written a book called uh I believe the

Sixth Extinction.

Sixth Extinction

>> You got it.

>> You got it

>> And it was about how we were all going

to die.

to die

>> Well, I'm not sure. We all are going to

>> Well I'm not sure We all are going to

die.

die

>> Most of us are going to die.

>> Most of us are going to die

>> Many, many species.

>> Many many species

>> Since then, you've put together this is

>> Since then you've put together this is

it's a wonderful book of essay. Well, I

it's a wonderful book of essay Well I

won't even hold it up. It was up on the

won't even hold it up It was up on the

the thing there. But what it says to me

the thing there But what it says to me

is you have since then traversed to all

ends of this planet.

ends of this planet

>> Still still cooking.

>> Still still cooking

>> Well, we still live. I think that one of

>> Well we still live I think that one of

the, you know, great uh ironies of my

the you know great uh ironies of my

career, such as it is, is that in

career such as it is is that in

writing about a lot of very, very

writing about a lot of very very

serious environmental problems, I've

serious environmental problems I've

been to the most amazing places on

Earth, which really give you an

Earth which really give you an

appreciation of what a fantastic planet

it is that we live on and how we might

want to take an interest in that.

want to take an interest in that

>> We might want to take an interest in

that.

that

>> It's just a thought. It's just a thought

>> It's just a thought It's just a thought

>> when you see these places. Greenland,

>> when you see these places Greenland

the the you went uh searching for whale

songs.

songs

Uh does it seem more resilient

than at first glance it may look even

with our own depravity when it comes to

polluting it or whatever we're doing?

polluting it or whatever we're doing

>> Well, you know, obviously life on this

>> Well you know obviously life on this

planet is extremely resilient or it

wouldn't be here, right? And I think

wouldn't be here right And I think

that we do see that whenever we sort of

take our foot off the gas pedal uh a lot

of things do spring back to life. So

of things do spring back to life So

there are a lot of of real success

stories

>> restorative.

>> restorative

>> Yes. I mean when we when we stop uh

>> Yes I mean when we when we stop uh

doing things when we stopped hunting for

things for example I'll give you a

really local example near where I live.

really local example near where I live

Please

>> when we stopped hunting turkeys it's a

very uh timely uh uh example around

Thanksgiving we stopped hunting wild

turkeys. Wild turkeys bounced back. life

turkeys Wild turkeys bounced back life

is extremely resilient. That that is

is extremely resilient That that is

>> but there are also repercussions from

that. I've noticed that these turkeys

that I've noticed that these turkeys

have gotten very sassy,

have gotten very sassy

>> very with with just operate with

impunity now. They walk across

impunity now They walk across

>> they think they can get pardoned for

>> gobble gobble mother like they don't

even

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah

>> That part.

>> That part

>> Yeah. Yeah. But it life is very

>> Yeah Yeah But it life is very

resilient. But we are really uh let's

resilient But we are really uh let's

just say we are piling it on.

just say we are piling it on

>> We are piling it on. And that brings us

>> We are piling it on And that brings us

to to the other question which is I feel

like the message about the tenuousness

of our environment is out there. It's

of our environment is out there It's

sort of like awareness. I think there's

sort of like awareness I think there's

an awareness.

an awareness

It doesn't seem to be commensurate

though with a change.

though with a change

Is that something that that you've

noticed?

noticed

>> Yeah. Good. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I I

>> Yeah Good Thank you Yeah Yeah I I

>> Why is it that we have not changed? What

>> Why is it that we have not changed What

are the the reasons why you don't think

we have changed our behavior? And do you

we have changed our behavior And do you

think how far up our bodies does the

water have to be before we might change

something?

something

>> Well, we're we seem really intent on,

>> Well we're we seem really intent on

you know, pushing this experiment about

you know pushing this experiment about

as far as it can go.

as far as it can go

>> Um, and I think that that is a very

>> Um and I think that that is a very

interesting fact about humanity. It's

interesting fact about humanity It's

actually really really interesting, uh,

actually really really interesting uh

as well as terrifying. Uh which turns

as well as terrifying Uh which turns

out you know that a lot of what you

learn about the world these days is very

interesting and terrifying at the same

time

>> right what is it about because

>> if you're an environmental so if you

think okay global warming is real

>> I can guarantee you that

>> and it is caused by human activity

is it realistic to think because what

we've been told over the last 35 years

is human activity is the cause and we've

just got to reduce human activity

But that seems to go against 10,000

But that seems to go against 10000

years of human activity, which is I like

years of human activity which is I like

that easier, faster, smaller, tastier,

that easier faster smaller tastier

dead.

dead

So, how do you how do we square those

So how do you how do we square those

things?

things

>> Well, I think that that you know, you

>> Well I think that that you know you

could argue that's the question of our

time, but I I will answer that uh

time but I I will answer that uh

question with a with a story uh which I

first heard from a climate scientist on

the top of the Greenland ice sheet. You

the top of the Greenland ice sheet You

were standing with him on the top of the

Greenland ice.

Greenland ice

>> Yes. Yes. And if you think if you think

>> Yes Yes And if you think if you think

about your geological history, so New

about your geological history so New

York about 10,000 years ago looked a lot

York about 10000 years ago looked a lot

like Greenland, right? Where we're

like Greenland right Where we're

sitting now uh was under about a mile of

ice. The ice uh retreated. We enter this

ice The ice uh retreated We enter this

period of unusual climate stability. And

period of unusual climate stability And

we know this from a lot of different

lines of evidence, including the ice on

lines of evidence including the ice on

Greenland. We enter this period of

Greenland We enter this period of

climate stability. We invent what we

climate stability We invent what we

call civilization. We invent

call civilization We invent

agriculture, writing, all the things,

agriculture writing all the things

towns, cities. We become very sedentary

towns cities We become very sedentary

and set in our ways. And what do we use

and set in our ways And what do we use

these 10,000 years to do? But to invent

these 10000 years to do But to invent

ways to disrupt the climate. Now, if you

ways to disrupt the climate Now if you

were thinking about, you know, what you

were thinking about you know what you

need to do when you are inherit

fortunately a period of unusual climate

stability, it would be to try to sort of

stability it would be to try to sort of

keep it that way. But we have gone

keep it that way But we have gone

chosen to go in the opposite direction

with all the evidence mounting mounting

evidence of the risks that that entails.

evidence of the risks that that entails

And once again, that's a fascinating

And once again that's a fascinating

thing to do, but not exactly uh what

thing to do but not exactly uh what

you'd recommend.

you'd recommend

>> See, what I hear from that story is if

>> See what I hear from that story is if

we keep this up, we could turn Greenland

we keep this up we could turn Greenland

into Manhattan.

into Manhattan

>> That is absolutely That is absolutely

true. Keep it up. But there's 20 feet of

true Keep it up But there's 20 feet of

sea level rise in there.

sea level rise in there

>> But we

>> So Manhattan won't be here,

>> So Manhattan won't be here

>> right? But but is there anything to

>> right But but is there anything to

>> Oh, we won't be here, so we'll just go

>> Oh we won't be here so we'll just go

up there.

up there

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah Yeah

>> Can I tell you what a great idea is?

>> Can I tell you what a great idea is

Because I imagine rents up there are

going to be much

>> Yeah. Yeah. There's going to be a lot of

>> Yeah Yeah There's going to be a lot of

competition for

>> But I think part of that is how, you

>> But I think part of that is how you

know, it makes us seem wildly

know it makes us seem wildly

irresponsible and selfish. And I'm not

irresponsible and selfish And I'm not

suggesting that we might not be that,

suggesting that we might not be that

but what species would be a better car?

but what species would be a better car

Like we've done like humans have done

amazing. There's like 8 billion of us.

amazing There's like 8 billion of us

And now when you think about the

creature comforts of the United States

and all the so-called first world

industrialized societies,

industrialized societies

is it fair for us now to turn to, you

is it fair for us now to turn to you

know, the different hemispheres that are

know the different hemispheres that are

less developed and go, I get you want

less developed and go I get you want

the mini fridge, but unfortunately you

the mini fridge but unfortunately you

can't get there in the same way that

that we did. how I feel like it's easy

that we did how I feel like it's easy

for us to castigate humankind, but I

for us to castigate humankind but I

feel like humankind is doing we just

want to when it plugs in know that it

that it works.

that it works

>> Yeah. Well, there's there's a bunch of

>> Yeah Well there's there's a bunch of

different ways to answer that. I mean,

different ways to answer that I mean

>> yes, other than yelling at me.

>> yes other than yelling at me

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah

>> I'm just trying to be honest about how

why I think we haven't done anything.

why I think we haven't done anything

>> Well, that's one of the reasons we

>> Well that's one of the reasons we

haven't done anything. I mean, I think

haven't done anything I mean I think

obviously, you know, when you ask less

obviously you know when you ask less

less developed countries to cut their

energy use, and our energy use is way up

energy use and our energy use is way up

there. We're like up there with the

there We're like up there with the

Saudis basically with per per company.

Saudis basically with per per company

>> And we we're I think we we're uh I think

responsible for what 40% of global

responsible for what 40 of global

warming or 50%.

warming or 50

>> Yeah. Basically, and in terms of just

>> Yeah Basically and in terms of just

like aggregate, you know, aggregate

like aggregate you know aggregate

emissions that are up there. And the

emissions that are up there And the

point, another point you have to make is

point another point you have to make is

they don't go away. They just stay

they don't go away They just stay

there. Um we're way we're the top. We're

there Um we're way we're the top We're

number one. Um, and yeah, come on. Yeah.

number one Um and yeah come on Yeah

And uh,

And uh

>> I gotta tell you, tone of voice didn't

>> I gotta tell you tone of voice didn't

sound as enthusiastic as didn't match

the words, Elizabeth.

the words Elizabeth

>> Sorry. Sorry.

>> Sorry Sorry

>> Am I the problem? Is what I'm getting

>> Am I the problem Is what I'm getting

at. is my lack of understanding of this

at is my lack of understanding of this

because I consider myself

>> uh accepting of climate science

>> understanding of some of the uh

depradations of it and an overwhelmingly

larger user of energy than

>> anybody outside of the United States.

>> anybody outside of the United States

>> Yeah. No, I think I I I I admire your

>> Yeah No I think I I I I admire your

cander. Um and I think that that is

cander Um and I think that that is

we're we are all I I I

>> that sounds like what you said. to break

>> that sounds like what you said to break

up with somebody.

up with somebody

>> We are all in that and all of us

basically all of us in the US and some

of us even more than others and I am

definitely at you know in my in writing

that book I you know burned up

tremendous amounts of carbon. So we are

tremendous amounts of carbon So we are

all you know part of that society that

burns a lot of carbon and the question

is is there any way to get from here to

there and the answer is I genuinely

don't know.

don't know

>> WAIT WHAT? THEN WHAT ARE YOU MAD at me

>> WAIT WHAT THEN WHAT ARE YOU MAD at me

for?

for

>> I'm not mad at you. I'm I'm not mad at

>> I'm not mad at you I'm I'm not mad at

you.

you

>> But so this is what brings me to the

next point, which is I think I do know

next point which is I think I do know

how

>> Oh, tell me.

>> Oh tell me

>> Because

I'm just going to ask my wife to fast

forward to just that part and go, you're

forward to just that part and go you're

going to want to use that.

going to want to use that

You're gonna want to use the phrase with

just that same intonation when I say

something like, "I think we can make it

something like I think we can make it

to the airport on time." And then you're

to the airport on time And then you're

gonna want to go, "Oh, tell me."

gonna want to go Oh tell me

Here's here's what I think. We're so

Here's here's what I think We're so

focused on the idea of it as a moral

question, as the idea that our

question as the idea that our

stewardship of the environment is about

virtue and not about sort of our the

nature of wanting to reproduce and make

life uh easier and that we've we've

pushed people away from the movement and

in the wrong direction. If what you're

in the wrong direction If what you're

saying to them is you want a better life

and that makes you corrupt because your

better life has to have more bicycling

like Ed Begley Jr. he's miserable right

like Ed Begley Jr he's miserable right

now.

now

>> He hates doing everything. But my point

>> He hates doing everything But my point

being, it seems like we just h the

being it seems like we just h the

better strategy would be honestly to

accept it and and do mitigating uh uh

mitigating structures that can help do

it and work on cleaning whatever it is

that we produce out of it and worry

about what comes after that next. No.

about what comes after that next No

>> Well, what how are we cleaning it?

>> Well what how are we cleaning it

>> Isn't carbon capture a thing? Isn't that

>> Isn't carbon capture a thing Isn't that

something that they

>> Well, there there I did write a chapter

>> Well there there I did write a chapter

of that book. is about carbon capture

of that book is about carbon capture

and I I believe um I I hate to quote

myself um but I think I said something

like uh it uh it it may be vital without

being viable. I mean we really don't

being viable I mean we really don't

have um you know largecale carbon

capture doesn't exist and it's not clear

that it will. And the other point that I

that it will And the other point that I

really need to make about carbon capture

is it takes a lot of energy.

is it takes a lot of energy

>> So

>> so do electric cars. I thought that was

>> so do electric cars I thought that was

going to get as

>> why would you use that energy to take

your carbon out of the air? Why don't

your carbon out of the air Why don't

you just make carbon-f free energy? That

you just make carbon-f free energy That

would kind of be I think everyone would

agree.

agree

>> But isn't that because it's been so far

more expensive. So it's not politically

more expensive So it's not politically

viable. In other words, like if we were

viable In other words like if we were

you saw what happened in New Jersey. New

you saw what happened in New Jersey New

Jersey electric prices went up 20%. AI

Jersey electric prices went up 20 AI

is now on the horizon. And what AI is

is now on the horizon And what AI is

not AI is not saying, "Hey, let's

not AI is not saying Hey let's

preserve the environment." AI is saying,

preserve the environment AI is saying

"Hey, uh, do you have any water? Do you

Hey uh do you have any water Do you

have any electricity? Like when AI they

have any electricity Like when AI they

say, "Oh, well that's worth it because

say Oh well that's worth it because

AI will solve this." My guess is what

AI will solve this My guess is what

AI's solution is going to be like,

AI's solution is going to be like

"Yeah, you guys should use less

Yeah you guys should use less

electricity. Send it our way."

electricity Send it our way

>> Exactly.

>> Exactly

>> So that exactly are we thinking about

this in in the wrong way? Well, I mean,

this in in the wrong way Well I mean

sometimes, you know, I think that the

sometimes you know I think that the

key thing to remember about climate

change, unfortunately, is you're not

change unfortunately is you're not

arguing, you know, you're not even

arguing you know you're not even

arguing with AI. You're not arguing

arguing with AI You're not arguing

politics. You're not even arguing with

politics You're not even arguing with

Donald Trump. You're arguing with

Donald Trump You're arguing with

physics. You're just arguing with basic

physics You're just arguing with basic

physics. So, we may be thinking about

physics So we may be thinking about

all it all wrong, but the physics of it

all it all wrong but the physics of it

are inarguable. And they've been

are inarguable And they've been

understood. Another point that is really

understood Another point that is really

key to unan is they've been understood

for over a hundred years now. This is

for over a hundred years now This is

not hard science.

not hard science

>> That carbon going into the atmosphere

heats up the earth.

heats up the earth

>> Exactly.

>> Exactly

>> No, no, no. That I that I understand.

>> No no no That I that I understand

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah

>> It just seems unrealistic to expect

8 billion people to row all in the same

positive moral direction. It feels like

positive moral direction It feels like

if we're going to do this, it's going to

if we're going to do this it's going to

come from somewhere else.

come from somewhere else

Well, I I think the question is where is

Well I I think the question is where is

that somewhere else? And now we're

that somewhere else And now we're

getting into a really big question.

getting into a really big question

Where is that somewhere else? Deep

Where is that somewhere else Deep

questions, John. And I also

questions John And I also

I'm going to provide it. Okay. So, I I

I'm going to provide it Okay So I I

often do go, you know, out into the

often do go you know out into the

world. I give talks and climate change

world I give talks and climate change

is one, you know, one of the topics. And

is one you know one of the topics And

at the end of the talk, people always

at the end of the talk people always

ask me the same question. How are we

ask me the same question How are we

going to solve this? And I say to them

going to solve this And I say to them

what I'm going to say to you right now.

what I'm going to say to you right now

If I had the answer, do you think I

If I had the answer do you think I

would keep it from you? You know, do you

would keep it from you You know do you

think that I wouldn't have written it in

this book if I had the answer? I do not

this book if I had the answer I do not

have this answer. It's not that I'm

have this answer It's not that I'm

withholding. It's not that I'm holding

withholding It's not that I'm holding

out on you, John. Yeah,

out on you John Yeah

>> I feel like you are.

>> I feel like you are

>> I feel like you don't want to tell me.

>> I feel like you don't want to tell me

>> I will also say one thing that I will

say though is that there are better and

worse things to do. I think that that's

worse things to do I think that that's

pretty clear and what we are doing right

now under a certain president uh whom

you have you know amply uh taken care of

earlier in the show um we are um

you KNOW

if if that is not the blurb for our Emmy

campaign I don't know what would be

>> exactly you can use you can use that one

too um uh you know we we are really uh

moving so far in the wrong direction and

we are trying to force our allies to

move in the wrong direction. So any kind

move in the wrong direction So any kind

of progress that was being made and some

modest amount of progress was being

made. We we the US is now trying to

made We we the US is now trying to

destroy and that is something that uh is

pretty unconscionable. But does that

pretty unconscionable But does that

point to how difficult this is

that it's not so politically viable?

that it's not so politically viable

Like as soon as everybody's on board

until gas goes up 10 cents. So the

until gas goes up 10 cents So the

minute, you know, originally there was

minute you know originally there was

all the like we're going to put a carbon

tax on things and that's the only thing

that's going to reduce consumption. And

that's going to reduce consumption And

the minute they did that, they got voted

the minute they did that they got voted

out of office and and new people came in

or uh the farmers in France, you know,

or uh the farmers in France you know

were like, "You can't do this to us in

were like You can't do this to us in

terms of trucking or the way that we

produce things." There are political

produce things There are political

realities to this.

realities to this

>> Yes, there are. But I think that the

>> Yes there are But I think that the

other there are other political

realities too which we you know there's

actually tremendous amounts of money to

be made on clean energy if we would you

know stop um basically you know we prop

up fossil fuels in this country to the

tune of many billions of dollars worth

of tax.

of tax

>> Sure. Sure. But we also do that to to

>> Sure Sure But we also do that to to

green energy.

green energy

>> We're trying to we're trying to Right.

>> We're trying to we're trying to Right

Exactly. So I don't know that we um can

Exactly So I don't know that we um can

assume that the politics of this there

the politics of this are always you know

and I don't want to be a conspiracy

theorist please.

theorist please

>> Yeah but the politics of this are always

being manipulated by people who have a

pretty solid vested interest in the

status quo. Who might those be? Yeah.

status quo Who might those be Yeah

>> I think that the Epstein

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah

I think that you know the US is now uh

the largest

>> oil and gas producer on the planet and

there are very very serious economic

interests at stake here and so I think

that the way that the politics get

manipulated um that is a serious problem

but I don't think that politics have to

be uh opposed to progress

>> right and my understanding is that we

have tried to do those things and that

it has not been as viable as we would

have liked in terms of solar and the new

grid and all those other things that

it's it's been difficult and I wonder

like are we going to have to make

cleaning up the carbon more worth it

financially or or as you say maybe it's

that's just not a possibility. Well, I

that's just not a possibility Well I

think that, you know, if you do look at

think that you know if you do look at

what is happening in China right now and

and China is, you know, has managed to

and China is you know has managed to

overtake us pretty much, you know, in

overtake us pretty much you know in

the time since we last talked uh talked

become the, you know, by far the world's

become the you know by far the world's

biggest emitter on a sort of annual

basis, right?

basis right

>> And the building coal plants like it's

nothing, like it's going out of style.

nothing like it's going out of style

>> They they they are also putting up clean

energy like it's not nothing

>> like it's going out of style. Chinese

>> like it's going out of style Chinese

>> and they're going to

>> coal plants and clean energy. they're

>> coal plants and clean energy they're

going to own those new industries and we

are going to, you know, sort of cling to

are going to you know sort of cling to

old industries. And so it's sort of like

old industries And so it's sort of like

if you were, you know, making kerosene

if you were you know making kerosene

lamps, you know, in the 19th century and

lamps you know in the 19th century and

someone said, well, there's this great

someone said well there's this great

invention called a light bulb. Maybe

invention called a light bulb Maybe

you'd want to get into that. We said,

you'd want to get into that We said

"No, we really want to stick with

No we really want to stick with

kerosene lamps." And that is really

kerosene lamps And that is really

honestly what we're doing. That is what

honestly what we're doing That is what

we're doing. And so what we're doing uh

we're doing And so what we're doing uh

might seem to make a lot of sense right

now, but I think when we look back on it

now but I think when we look back on it

uh 10, 20 years from now, both

uh 10 20 years from now both

economically and environmentally, it

economically and environmentally it

will not make sense.

will not make sense

>> No, I agree with you. And I think it

>> No I agree with you And I think it

doesn't make a lot of sense. It's more

doesn't make a lot of sense It's more

that uh unfortunately making sense has

not been our forte.

not been our forte

>> Exactly.

>> Exactly

>> That that's kind of my point is all I

>> Well, I totally agree with that.

>> Well I totally agree with that

>> You know, I knew we would come to a

>> You know I knew we would come to a

thing. So if you could if you could

thing So if you could if you could

Thank you. Very nice. If

Thank you Very nice If

>> you could just give my wife a different

phrase to say to me, that would

phrase to say to me that would

>> Yeah. Well, I also just do want to make

>> Yeah Well I also just do want to make

one point before I um you know, it it

one point before I um you know it it

really is true now that solar putting up

new solar energy. New is the cheapest

new solar energy New is the cheapest

form of new energy of added capacity.

form of new energy of added capacity

That that is true and that fact is

something that we should be celebrating

and building on. Is that with subsidies

and building on Is that with subsidies

or without or it just it just is the

cheapest.

cheapest

>> It just is cheapest. It just is cheap

>> It just is cheapest It just is cheap

and reliability and even in the

developing world uh a lot of countries

are moving that way. A lot of countries

are moving that way A lot of countries

that have a lot of sun uh because it is

simply cheaper. Not even for

simply cheaper Not even for

environment.

environment

>> See, there you go. That's a piece of

>> See there you go That's a piece of

information I did not have and that

maybe could change my cynicism on this.

maybe could change my cynicism on this

>> Well, far be it for me to want to change

>> Well far be it for me to want to change

your cynicism, John.

your cynicism John

>> Okay. Life on a little known planet

>> Okay Life on a little known planet

available now. Elizabeth Colbert. Heat.

available now Elizabeth Colbert Heat

Heat.

Heat

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