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Thank you for having me.
Thank
you
for
having
me
>> Uh you you are actually you were in an
>>
Uh
you
you
are
actually
you
were
in
an
unusual uh uh position during this. You
unusual
uh
uh
position
during
this
You
have spoken with the Iranians in your
have
spoken
with
the
Iranians
in
your
life. You have negotiated with them on
life
You
have
negotiated
with
them
on
nuclear issues. You were part of that I
nuclear
issues
You
were
part
of
that
I
guess they call JCPOA that agreement
guess
they
call
JCPOA
that
agreement
that Iran was in uh uh before.
that
Iran
was
in
uh
uh
before
As you put yourself in the shoes of the
As
you
put
yourself
in
the
shoes
of
the
people now, who do you think they're
people
now
who
do
you
think
they're
negotiating with? A guy?
negotiating
with
A
guy
What? What a guy are they talking to?
What
What
a
guy
are
they
talking
to
>> So, so John, you're absolutely right.
>>
So
so
John
you're
absolutely
right
Um, I was part of the team that
Um
I
was
part
of
the
team
that
President Obama sent for secret
President
Obama
sent
for
secret
negotiations with the Iranians for
negotiations
with
the
Iranians
for
several months, paving the way for the
several
months
paving
the
way
for
the
Iran nuclear deal. One of the guys I
Iran
nuclear
deal
One
of
the
guys
I
actually negotiated with is the guy you
actually
negotiated
with
is
the
guy
you
see on TV all the time now, their
see
on
TV
all
the
time
now
their
foreign minister, Abbas Iraqi, one of
foreign
minister
Abbas
Iraqi
one
of
the few Iranians that's still showing
the
few
Iranians
that's
still
showing
his face publicly. I actually have a
his
face
publicly
I
actually
have
a
good story about a guy versus the guy.
good
story
about
a
guy
versus
the
guy
Um during those negotiations, President
Um
during
those
negotiations
President
Obama wanted the opportunity to speak to
Obama
wanted
the
opportunity
to
speak
to
the then president of Iran, President
the
then
president
of
Iran
President
Roani. And in our secret negotiations, I
Roani
And
in
our
secret
negotiations
I
had a contact with one of the Iranian
had
a
contact
with
one
of
the
Iranian
officials, and he gave me a cell phone
officials
and
he
gave
me
a
cell
phone
number to give to the situation room for
number
to
give
to
the
situation
room
for
President Obama to be connected with
President
Obama
to
be
connected
with
President Rahani. So, I hand over the
President
Rahani
So
I
hand
over
the
cell phone, and I'm standing there in
cell
phone
and
I'm
standing
there
in
the Oval Office while the call is being
the
Oval
Office
while
the
call
is
being
connected, and I have a thought. Have I
connected
and
I
have
a
thought
Have
I
just connected the president to like a
just
connected
the
president
to
like
a
Canadian shock jock or some random other
Canadian
shock
jock
or
some
random
other
person or is this actually the president
person
or
is
this
actually
the
president
of Iran? I'm going back through my head.
of
Iran
I'm
going
back
through
my
head
What's the chain of custody of this
What's
the
chain
of
custody
of
this
phone number? And in the end, the
phone
number
And
in
the
end
the
Iranians put out a statement saying, in
Iranians
put
out
a
statement
saying
in
fact, their president had spoken to our
fact
their
president
had
spoken
to
our
president. So, it was all confirmed. And
president
So
it
was
all
confirmed
And
I was like, all good. But
I
was
like
all
good
But
>> what if they had what if it was like
>>
what
if
they
had
what
if
it
was
like
>> like like a girl at a bar who's like,
>>
like
like
a
girl
at
a
bar
who's
like
"Sure, here's my number." Can you
Sure
here's
my
number
Can
you
imagine this amazing moment in the White
imagine
this
amazing
moment
in
the
White
House,
House
>> right?
>>
right
>> President of the United States, speaking
>>
President
of
the
United
States
speaking
to the president of Iran for the first
to
the
president
of
Iran
for
the
first
time since 1979, a possibility of a real
time
since
1979
a
possibility
of
a
real
diplomatic breakthrough. And I'm
diplomatic
breakthrough
And
I'm
standing there just sweating bullets
standing
there
just
sweating
bullets
like, "Oh my god, what have I done?"
like
Oh
my
god
what
have
I
done
>> Yes.
>>
Yes
>> Turned out okay. But look, you know, it
>>
Turned
out
okay
But
look
you
know
it
to me is a damn shame, and you said this
to
me
is
a
damn
shame
and
you
said
this
in your opening, that it's really hard
in
your
opening
that
it's
really
hard
to know who to credit with their
to
know
who
to
credit
with
their
account. The Iranians say there is no
account
The
Iranians
say
there
is
no
communication. the president of the
communication
the
president
of
the
United States says there is. You'd want
United
States
says
there
is
You'd
want
to believe the president of the United
to
believe
the
president
of
the
United
States over hardline clerics in Iran,
States
over
hardline
clerics
in
Iran
but the reality is probably there's some
but
the
reality
is
probably
there's
some
kind of messages getting passed without
kind
of
messages
getting
passed
without
real conversations happening, at least
real
conversations
happening
at
least
not yet. In the times that you had dealt
not
yet
In
the
times
that
you
had
dealt
with the Iranians for the JCPOA and then
with
the
Iranians
for
the
JCPOA
and
then
again uh dealing with them during the
again
uh
dealing
with
them
during
the
Biden administration, how close did we
Biden
administration
how
close
did
we
come to
come
to
physical
physical
it escalating into war into bombing
it
escalating
into
war
into
bombing
four years of the Biden administration?
four
years
of
the
Biden
administration
We didn't get them back into the JCPOA.
We
didn't
get
them
back
into
the
JCPOA
We didn't do any of those things. How
We
didn't
do
any
of
those
things
How
untrustworthy regime are they? Do
untrustworthy
regime
are
they
Do
sanctions work? like it doesn't seem
sanctions
work
like
it
doesn't
seem
like there are any good solutions.
like
there
are
any
good
solutions
>> Well, first I would just say, you know,
>>
Well
first
I
would
just
say
you
know
Reagan said to the Soviets, trust but
Reagan
said
to
the
Soviets
trust
but
verify. I always said when it came to
verify
I
always
said
when
it
came
to
the Iranians, don't trust and verify.
the
Iranians
don't
trust
and
verify
And you had to do that all the way
And
you
had
to
do
that
all
the
way
through. And when we got the Iran
through
And
when
we
got
the
Iran
nuclear deal in the Obama
nuclear
deal
in
the
Obama
administration, it had deep verification
administration
it
had
deep
verification
built into it. Inspectors on the ground
built
into
it
Inspectors
on
the
ground
over every inch of Iran's nuclear
over
every
inch
of
Iran's
nuclear
infrastructure to make sure they were
infrastructure
to
make
sure
they
were
complying.
complying
>> Did they comply with that? Because the
>>
Did
they
comply
with
that
Because
the
the scuttlebutt from a couple of guys is
the
scuttlebutt
from
a
couple
of
guys
is
that they didn't and that's why and we
that
they
didn't
and
that's
why
and
we
gave them billions of dollars that they
gave
them
billions
of
dollars
that
they
used for Hamas and and Hezbollah.
used
for
Hamas
and
and
Hezbollah
Is that what happened in your mind?
Is
that
what
happened
in
your
mind
>> They got sanctions relief as a result of
>>
They
got
sanctions
relief
as
a
result
of
the deal. But yes, John, they were
the
deal
But
yes
John
they
were
complying with the deal. Even the
complying
with
the
deal
Even
the
Israel, even in the nuclear facilities,
Israel
even
in
the
nuclear
facilities
you got
you
got
>> they were complying with the agreement.
>>
they
were
complying
with
the
agreement
And then in 2018, President Trump pulled
And
then
in
2018
President
Trump
pulled
out of it. Said this is the worst deal
out
of
it
Said
this
is
the
worst
deal
in human history. If that's true, that
in
human
history
If
that's
true
that
is quite remarkable because there's been
is
quite
remarkable
because
there's
been
a lot of deals in human history about
a
lot
of
deals
in
human
history
about
trade with Canada. So, you have to
trade
with
Canada
So
you
have
to
temper it.
temper
it
>> Exactly. So, he pulls out of the deal
>>
Exactly
So
he
pulls
out
of
the
deal
and you're right, in the four years of
and
you're
right
in
the
four
years
of
the Biden administration, we got close
the
Biden
administration
we
got
close
at various points. We negotiated to get
at
various
points
We
negotiated
to
get
back in, but we couldn't get back in in
back
in
but
we
couldn't
get
back
in
in
part because the Iranians said, "Wait a
part
because
the
Iranians
said
Wait
a
second, we did a deal with Obama. Trump
second
we
did
a
deal
with
Obama
Trump
pulled out of it.
pulled
out
of
it
>> How do we know that if you come in,
>>
How
do
we
know
that
if
you
come
in
you're not going to pull out of it
you're
not
going
to
pull
out
of
it
again?" Then Trump comes back. And when
again
Then
Trump
comes
back
And
when
Trump comes back, there is actually an
Trump
comes
back
there
is
actually
an
opportunity to do a deal because he's
opportunity
to
do
a
deal
because
he's
the guy who pulled out. And just a few
the
guy
who
pulled
out
And
just
a
few
days before we started bombing Iran, the
days
before
we
started
bombing
Iran
the
Iranians put a proposal on the table in
Iranians
put
a
proposal
on
the
table
in
Geneva. That went a long way towards
Geneva
That
went
a
long
way
towards
resolving the nuclear issue. And my
resolving
the
nuclear
issue
And
my
understanding is that our side, our
understanding
is
that
our
side
our
negotiators simply didn't understand
negotiators
simply
didn't
understand
what they were being offered and they
what
they
were
being
offered
and
they
ignored it and decided to go ahead and
ignored
it
and
decided
to
go
ahead
and
strike.
strike
>> Our guys didn't understand. Was it in
>>
Our
guys
didn't
understand
Was
it
in
Farsy? But I I don't What do you What do
Farsy
But
I
I
don't
What
do
you
What
do
you mean they didn't like they didn't
you
mean
they
didn't
like
they
didn't
understand the Iranians negotiating
understand
the
Iranians
negotiating
code?
code
>> Well, if you listen to the way that our
>>
Well
if
you
listen
to
the
way
that
our
the the Trump administration officials
the
the
Trump
administration
officials
who were involved in this spoke about
who
were
involved
in
this
spoke
about
what the Iranians were proposing,
what
the
Iranians
were
proposing
there's a mismatch between that and what
there's
a
mismatch
between
that
and
what
the mediators, the Omani mediators said
the
mediators
the
Omani
mediators
said
was actually on the table. All right.
was
actually
on
the
table
All
right
So, I think
So
I
think
>> the Trump administration said that Iran
>>
the
Trump
administration
said
that
Iran
was threatening them by suggesting that
was
threatening
them
by
suggesting
that
they had a lot of enriched uranium. And
they
had
a
lot
of
enriched
uranium
And
apparently the Omani said, "No, they
apparently
the
Omani
said
No
they
weren't threatening you. They were just
weren't
threatening
you
They
were
just
telling you what they had."
telling
you
what
they
had
>> Telling you what they had and also
>>
Telling
you
what
they
had
and
also
saying we're prepared to down blend that
saying
we're
prepared
to
down
blend
that
uranium, which basically means render it
uranium
which
basically
means
render
it
so that it's no longer fit for purpose
so
that
it's
no
longer
fit
for
purpose
to be turned into.
to
be
turned
into
>> No, you cut it with baking soda. I've
>>
No
you
cut
it
with
baking
soda
I've
been around. I know I know what you do
been
around
I
know
I
know
what
you
do
with the enriched uranium.
with
the
enriched
uranium
So, at the end of the day,
So
at
the
end
of
the
day
>> and and I thought the way you laid out
>>
and
and
I
thought
the
way
you
laid
out
your opening segment with the total
your
opening
segment
with
the
total
obliteration was so powerful because you
obliteration
was
so
powerful
because
you
can strike Iran's nuclear program,
can
strike
Iran's
nuclear
program
>> right?
>>
right
>> But at the end of the day, they still
>>
But
at
the
end
of
the
day
they
still
have a stockpile of enriched uranium.
have
a
stockpile
of
enriched
uranium
They still have centrifuges lying around
They
still
have
centrifuges
lying
around
various facilities we may not even know
various
facilities
we
may
not
even
know
about,
about
>> right?
>>
right
>> And they still have scientists who know
>>
And
they
still
have
scientists
who
know
how to put all that together. So this
how
to
put
all
that
together
So
this
gets us to the the interesting point
gets
us
to
the
the
interesting
point
about belligerent countries and about
about
belligerent
countries
and
about
belligerent nations. And that is the
belligerent
nations
And
that
is
the
difference between capability and
difference
between
capability
and
ambition. And I think we're seeing that
ambition
And
I
think
we're
seeing
that
now with Netanyahu, by the way, when you
now
with
Netanyahu
by
the
way
when
you
were in office, how many times did you
were
in
office
how
many
times
did
you
have to say to Netanyahu like, "Don't
have
to
say
to
Netanyahu
like
Don't
bomb that." Like, do they listen? You
bomb
that
Like
do
they
listen
You
know, I was so struck. This is a
know
I
was
so
struck
This
is
a
tangent.
tangent
He seems nuts. Like it's the kind of
He
seems
nuts
Like
it's
the
kind
of
thing I remember when Russia bombed
thing
I
remember
when
Russia
bombed
Ukraine and you guys came out with very
Ukraine
and
you
guys
came
out
with
very
powerful statements. These are war
powerful
statements
These
are
war
crimes. You're against that. And then
crimes
You're
against
that
And
then
Netanyahu bombs Gaza and kills thousands
Netanyahu
bombs
Gaza
and
kills
thousands
and thousands of civilians and the US is
and
thousands
of
civilians
and
the
US
is
like, "Hey guys, be cool." Like, it's so
like
Hey
guys
be
cool
Like
it's
so
weird to me that we don't take Why is
weird
to
me
that
we
don't
take
Why
is
that?
that
>> Well, there's a couple things. I mean,
>>
Well
there's
a
couple
things
I
mean
first, historically, the US has been
first
historically
the
US
has
been
harder on our enemies than we've been on
harder
on
our
enemies
than
we've
been
on
our friends. And that's true across the
our
friends
And
that's
true
across
the
board. But secondly, John, the
board
But
secondly
John
the
devastation in Gaza, the killing of
devastation
in
Gaza
the
killing
of
civilians, the harm, the suffering, the
civilians
the
harm
the
suffering
the
pain,
pain
>> was something we tried to get up every
>>
was
something
we
tried
to
get
up
every
day to end the war. And we didn't end it
day
to
end
the
war
And
we
didn't
end
it
fast enough. But when we left office, we
fast
enough
But
when
we
left
office
we
did have a ceasefire in place. And
did
have
a
ceasefire
in
place
And
that's what we handed off to the
that's
what
we
handed
off
to
the
>> but we don't there there's no conditions
>>
but
we
don't
there
there's
no
conditions
we can say like, you know, no bombie.
we
can
say
like
you
know
no
bombie
Those are our bomb. We give them that
Those
are
our
bomb
We
give
them
that
those those weapons. We can't dictate
those
those
weapons
We
can't
dictate
because I don't know the endgame. Like
because
I
don't
know
the
endgame
Like
right now he he's bombing Iran, but he's
right
now
he
he's
bombing
Iran
but
he's
also still bombing in Gaza and now he's
also
still
bombing
in
Gaza
and
now
he's
decided to invade southern Lebanon or or
decided
to
invade
southern
Lebanon
or
or
bomb that. Again, it gets to you can
bomb
that
Again
it
gets
to
you
can
degrade capability, but all you're doing
degrade
capability
but
all
you're
doing
is creating more ambition. And how is
is
creating
more
ambition
And
how
is
that a recipe for a lasting peace? Well,
that
a
recipe
for
a
lasting
peace
Well
we had someone on our podcast a couple
we
had
someone
on
our
podcast
a
couple
weeks ago named Danny Centrrenowitz, who
weeks
ago
named
Danny
Centrrenowitz
who
is the Israeli Defense Force's
is
the
Israeli
Defense
Force's
intelligence lead for Iran, was that for
intelligence
lead
for
Iran
was
that
for
15 years. And what he basically said was
15
years
And
what
he
basically
said
was
when it comes to Iran, what Israel would
when
it
comes
to
Iran
what
Israel
would
like to do under this particular
like
to
do
under
this
particular
government is just break Iran, cause
government
is
just
break
Iran
cause
chaos, because as far as they're
chaos
because
as
far
as
they're
concerned, a broken Iran is less of a
concerned
a
broken
Iran
is
less
of
a
threat to Israel. Now, the United States
threat
to
Israel
Now
the
United
States
of America cannot think about it that
of
America
cannot
think
about
it
that
way because a broken Iran means a broken
way
because
a
broken
Iran
means
a
broken
global economy because they continue to
global
economy
because
they
continue
to
threaten the Straits of Hormuz. It means
threaten
the
Straits
of
Hormuz
It
means
a potential refugee flow like we saw
a
potential
refugee
flow
like
we
saw
after the war in Syria into Europe. It
after
the
war
in
Syria
into
Europe
It
means a lot else besides. So, I do
means
a
lot
else
besides
So
I
do
believe that when it comes to this war
believe
that
when
it
comes
to
this
war
in Iran, there is a real divergence
in
Iran
there
is
a
real
divergence
between Israel's ultimate aims and the
between
Israel's
ultimate
aims
and
the
United States's ultimate aims. And part
United
States's
ultimate
aims
And
part
of the challenge we've seen is that when
of
the
challenge
we've
seen
is
that
when
we ask what is the administration doing,
we
ask
what
is
the
administration
doing
they can't answer that question because
they
can't
answer
that
question
because
they don't know why they're there in the
they
don't
know
why
they're
there
in
the
first place. They haven't been able to
first
place
They
haven't
been
able
to
give us an answer as to what this is all
give
us
an
answer
as
to
what
this
is
all
about.
about
>> But look, I don't go along the route of
>>
But
look
I
don't
go
along
the
route
of
because I know there's there's now all
because
I
know
there's
there's
now
all
the theories like Israel is wagging the
the
theories
like
Israel
is
wagging
the
dog. I I never bought that. I feel like
dog
I
I
never
bought
that
I
feel
like
they're a convenient scapegoat for the
they're
a
convenient
scapegoat
for
the
United States to continue our
United
States
to
continue
our
imperialistic adventures in that part of
imperialistic
adventures
in
that
part
of
the world. And I want to ask you because
the
world
And
I
want
to
ask
you
because
it it really does what strikes me as
it
it
really
does
what
strikes
me
as
maybe
maybe
I don't want to say the fatal flaw in
I
don't
want
to
say
the
fatal
flaw
in
American foreign policy and I want to
American
foreign
policy
and
I
want
to
ask you if you guys have wrestled with
ask
you
if
you
guys
have
wrestled
with
this is the difference between we talked
this
is
the
difference
between
we
talked
about capability and ambition but what
about
capability
and
ambition
but
what
about influence and control?
about
influence
and
control
I think America hasn't figured out the
I
think
America
hasn't
figured
out
the
difference between trying to influence
difference
between
trying
to
influence
events and control it. And our policies
events
and
control
it
And
our
policies
in the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan,
in
the
Middle
East
Iraq
Afghanistan
Libya,
Libya
have shown an inability to understand
have
shown
an
inability
to
understand
the repercussions
the
repercussions
of those actions, whereas China doesn't
of
those
actions
whereas
China
doesn't
seem to fall into that trap. What What
seem
to
fall
into
that
trap
What
What
do you think of of that for us?
do
you
think
of
of
that
for
us
>> I basically agree with you. And when
>>
I
basically
agree
with
you
And
when
President Biden
President
Biden
>> I did not see that coming.
>>
I
did
not
see
that
coming
>> When when look when when President Biden
>>
When
when
look
when
when
President
Biden
was elected,
was
elected
>> one of the charges he gave all of us was
>>
one
of
the
charges
he
gave
all
of
us
was
end America's longest war in
end
America's
longest
war
in
Afghanistan,
Afghanistan
>> right?
>>
right
>> And do not put the United States
>>
And
do
not
put
the
United
States
uniformed military men and women back
uniformed
military
men
and
women
back
into war in the Middle East or anywhere
into
war
in
the
Middle
East
or
anywhere
else if it can possibly be avoided. That
else
if
it
can
possibly
be
avoided
That
was his charge.
was
his
charge
>> And we did end the war in Afghanistan.
>>
And
we
did
end
the
war
in
Afghanistan
And it was painful and it was brutal and
And
it
was
painful
and
it
was
brutal
and
it was tragic. But when we left office,
it
was
tragic
But
when
we
left
office
America was not at war for the first
America
was
not
at
war
for
the
first
time in 25 years. And one of the reasons
time
in
25
years
And
one
of
the
reasons
that President Biden gave for why he
that
President
Biden
gave
for
why
he
wanted to do that
wanted
to
do
that
>> is because China was extremely happy to
>>
is
because
China
was
extremely
happy
to
see the United States tied down in war
see
the
United
States
tied
down
in
war
in the Middle East while they went
in
the
Middle
East
while
they
went
around the world with their larettes
around
the
world
with
their
larettes
trying to win influence as you said and
trying
to
win
influence
as
you
said
and
I think we do need to turn the page on
I
think
we
do
need
to
turn
the
page
on
the forever wars, move forward to
the
forever
wars
move
forward
to
compete where competition matters in
compete
where
competition
matters
in
infrastructure and technology and
infrastructure
and
technology
and
economic development. But I would also
economic
development
But
I
would
also
say that in that post 911 period, John,
say
that
in
that
post
911
period
John
we did a lot of good things too. Every
we
did
a
lot
of
good
things
too
Every
administration did.
administration
did
>> If you look at uh the the question of
>>
If
you
look
at
uh
the
the
question
of
global health or people coming out of
global
health
or
people
coming
out
of
poverty or people gaining literacy all
poverty
or
people
gaining
literacy
all
over the world, those indicators are all
over
the
world
those
indicators
are
all
up and that is because in no small part
up
and
that
is
because
in
no
small
part
because of the United States of America.
because
of
the
United
States
of
America
So
So
>> in no way though over these last if you
>>
in
no
way
though
over
these
last
if
you
were to look back on these last let's
were
to
look
back
on
these
last
let's
say 25 years the reputation of the
say
25
years
the
reputation
of
the
United States is not they'll come in and
United
States
is
not
they'll
come
in
and
really help us take care of poverty. The
really
help
us
take
care
of
poverty
The
reputation of the United States is
reputation
of
the
United
States
is
they'll bomb the out of you from
they'll
bomb
the
out
of
you
from
wherever. Maybe they'll stay for a
wherever
Maybe
they'll
stay
for
a
little while. Maybe they won't. They'll
little
while
Maybe
they
won't
They'll
tell you like with the Kurds, we'll arm
tell
you
like
with
the
Kurds
we'll
arm
you and we'll support you and then
you
and
we'll
support
you
and
then
we'lling abandon you or we'll tell like
we'lling
abandon
you
or
we'll
tell
like
where is our credibility on the world
where
is
our
credibility
on
the
world
stage given the just unbelievable chaos
stage
given
the
just
unbelievable
chaos
that we've unleashed. I think we're
that
we've
unleashed
I
think
we're
generally responsible for the right uh
generally
responsible
for
the
right
uh
populist swing in Europe because if we
populist
swing
in
Europe
because
if
we
hadn't have done Libya and we hadn't
hadn't
have
done
Libya
and
we
hadn't
have done Iraq and all those different
have
done
Iraq
and
all
those
different
things, would they be flooded with
things
would
they
be
flooded
with
refugees in those moments?
refugees
in
those
moments
>> I think Libya certainly contributed to
>>
I
think
Libya
certainly
contributed
to
that. So did Syria. Of course, the
that
So
did
Syria
Of
course
the
difference between Libya and Syria is in
difference
between
Libya
and
Syria
is
in
Libya, we did take military action. In
Libya
we
did
take
military
action
In
Syria, we didn't. And in both cases, you
Syria
we
didn't
And
in
both
cases
you
ended up
ended
up
>> Well, we did though in Syria. We just
>>
Well
we
did
though
in
Syria
We
just
didn't talk about it. We were arming
didn't
talk
about
it
We
were
arming
al-Nusra front and all those other they
al-Nusra
front
and
all
those
other
they
they were being armed. I remember
they
were
being
armed
I
remember
running into this was so it was so
running
into
this
was
so
it
was
so
weird. I was in Aman Jordan. We were
weird
I
was
in
Aman
Jordan
We
were
doing a film and it's all Emiradis in
doing
a
film
and
it's
all
Emiradis
in
the hotel. It was the Hyatt that had
the
hotel
It
was
the
Hyatt
that
had
been bombed previously. Although uh
been
bombed
previously
Although
uh
they'd really patch that up when I was
they'd
really
patch
that
up
when
I
was
there. My room you could barely tell.
there
My
room
you
could
barely
tell
And it's it's Ramadan and it's all
And
it's
it's
Ramadan
and
it's
all
Emiratis and it's thing and there's this
Emiratis
and
it's
thing
and
there's
this
one table of like dudes who very clearly
one
table
of
like
dudes
who
very
clearly
were like raised in Nebraska and had the
were
like
raised
in
Nebraska
and
had
the
crew cuts. So I go over to the table and
crew
cuts
So
I
go
over
to
the
table
and
I go, "Uh, hey man, what are you doing
I
go
Uh
hey
man
what
are
you
doing
here?" And uh the guy looks at me and he
here
And
uh
the
guy
looks
at
me
and
he
goes, "We're not here."
goes
We're
not
here
And I was just like, and then I just got
And
I
was
just
like
and
then
I
just
got
cold.
cold
But we we do do that and we do interfere
But
we
we
do
do
that
and
we
do
interfere
in all these places and somewhat
in
all
these
places
and
somewhat
cavalier nature. And then when it blows
cavalier
nature
And
then
when
it
blows
back on us, we're like, well, I guess
back
on
us
we're
like
well
I
guess
we're just going to we're just going to
we're
just
going
to
we're
just
going
to
abandon that project, but we it seems
abandon
that
project
but
we
it
seems
like we haven't changed the approach.
like
we
haven't
changed
the
approach
Well, what I find really interesting is
Well
what
I
find
really
interesting
is
that uh in his first term, President
that
uh
in
his
first
term
President
Trump said basically, I don't want to
Trump
said
basically
I
don't
want
to
get involved in these foreign
get
involved
in
these
foreign
>> not doing anything. Yeah.
>>
not
doing
anything
Yeah
>> President Biden comes along, ends the
>>
President
Biden
comes
along
ends
the
war in Afghanistan. The United States is
war
in
Afghanistan
The
United
States
is
basically out of the business of
basically
out
of
the
business
of
directly US forces in these countries
directly
US
forces
in
these
countries
fighting wars. President Trump runs in
fighting
wars
President
Trump
runs
in
2024 saying, "I'm going to be the peace
2024
saying
I'm
going
to
be
the
peace
candidate." Gets awarded the FIFA Peace
candidate
Gets
awarded
the
FIFA
Peace
Prize a few weeks ago.
Prize
a
few
weeks
ago
>> Very prestigious. very prestigious and
>>
Very
prestigious
very
prestigious
and
then turns around and says, "No, no, I'm
then
turns
around
and
says
No
no
I'm
getting right back into this game." And
getting
right
back
into
this
game
And
the question is why? And I think a lot
the
question
is
why
And
I
think
a
lot
of it is that the appetite for him has
of
it
is
that
the
appetite
for
him
has
grown with the eating. He did the
grown
with
the
eating
He
did
the
bombing of the nuclear facility last
bombing
of
the
nuclear
facility
last
year. Total obliteration as he put it.
year
Total
obliteration
as
he
put
it
>> Yes,
>>
Yes
>> he does Maduro.
>>
he
does
Maduro
>> He doesn't feel there are a lot of
>>
He
doesn't
feel
there
are
a
lot
of
consequences to your point about
consequences
to
your
point
about
consequences and blowback. He doesn't
consequences
and
blowback
He
doesn't
feel that, at least not immediately.
feel
that
at
least
not
immediately
there were those of us like you who are
there
were
those
of
us
like
you
who
are
warning at the time there's going to be
warning
at
the
time
there's
going
to
be
a bill to be paid for this down the
a
bill
to
be
paid
for
this
down
the
road. He didn't see that. So then he
road
He
didn't
see
that
So
then
he
thinks I can go to war against Iran on a
thinks
I
can
go
to
war
against
Iran
on
a
basis that could be up to and including
basis
that
could
be
up
to
and
including
regime change and the Iranians aren't
regime
change
and
the
Iranians
aren't
going to do anything in response.
going
to
do
anything
in
response
Therefore I don't even need to prepare
Therefore
I
don't
even
need
to
prepare
to protect the straight of Hormuz. And
to
protect
the
straight
of
Hormuz
And
that I think has been the fundamental
that
I
think
has
been
the
fundamental
flaw here. a belief that despite all the
flaw
here
a
belief
that
despite
all
the
evidence we have from Iraq and
evidence
we
have
from
Iraq
and
Afghanistan that when we get into these
Afghanistan
that
when
we
get
into
these
kinds of Middle Eastern wars, they do
kinds
of
Middle
Eastern
wars
they
do
not work out well for us and we need to
not
work
out
well
for
us
and
we
need
to
turn the page on this.
turn
the
page
on
this
>> Forget about Middle Eastern wars, South
>>
Forget
about
Middle
Eastern
wars
South
American wars, Central American wars. We
American
wars
Central
American
wars
We
are a regime change machine all over uh
are
a
regime
change
machine
all
over
uh
the world and we're so overly extended.
the
world
and
we're
so
overly
extended
when when you were there, does each
when
when
you
were
there
does
each
president have is there like a little
president
have
is
there
like
a
little
like Iran? Like there's a library and
like
Iran
Like
there's
a
library
and
I'm assuming it's done alphabetically,
I'm
assuming
it's
done
alphabetically
but uh so Iran and then obviously Iraq
but
uh
so
Iran
and
then
obviously
Iraq
probably thicker book, but but they sit
probably
thicker
book
but
but
they
sit
next to each other and doesn't it say
next
to
each
other
and
doesn't
it
say
when you pull it out the work of 30
when
you
pull
it
out
the
work
of
30
years of of analysts, here's what's
years
of
of
analysts
here's
what's
going to happen here. Here's what's
going
to
happen
here
Here's
what's
going to happen here. Don't they game
going
to
happen
here
Don't
they
game
this stuff out? Add infinite item. at
this
stuff
out
Add
infinite
item
at
infin item.
infin
item
>> So, so that's so and he knows that the
>>
So
so
that's
so
and
he
knows
that
the
the president must know that.
the
president
must
know
that
>> Well, what was interesting is there were
>>
Well
what
was
interesting
is
there
were
a number of newspaper stories in the
a
number
of
newspaper
stories
in
the
days leading up to this war because we
days
leading
up
to
this
war
because
we
could see it coming from weeks away as
could
see
it
coming
from
weeks
away
as
we built up for it,
we
built
up
for
it
>> right?
>>
right
>> Where it was military officials,
>>
Where
it
was
military
officials
including the most senior military
including
the
most
senior
military
officials in the Pentagon, basically
officials
in
the
Pentagon
basically
being quoted on background saying, "We
being
quoted
on
background
saying
We
have misgivings about this because of
have
misgivings
about
this
because
of
the potential response we could see from
the
potential
response
we
could
see
from
Iran." But President Trump did not
Iran
But
President
Trump
did
not
listen to that. And my supposition for
listen
to
that
And
my
supposition
for
why is because he was on a high from the
why
is
because
he
was
on
a
high
from
the
12-day war last year and the Maduro
12-day
war
last
year
and
the
Maduro
raid. And he basically thought, I can do
raid
And
he
basically
thought
I
can
do
the Iran's weak. I can do this. They're
the
Iran's
weak
I
can
do
this
They're
not going to respond. They didn't
not
going
to
respond
They
didn't
respond last year. They're not going to
respond
last
year
They're
not
going
to
respond this year. And it wouldn't just
respond
this
year
And
it
wouldn't
just
be the military, but the intelligence
be
the
military
but
the
intelligence
community would have told him, you start
community
would
have
told
him
you
start
waving the possibility of regime change
waving
the
possibility
of
regime
change
in Iran, these guys are going to rightly
in
Iran
these
guys
are
going
to
rightly
consider that existential, and they're
consider
that
existential
and
they're
going to do whatever they can to
going
to
do
whatever
they
can
to
respond. You know, I said earlier that
respond
You
know
I
said
earlier
that
the United States doesn't know why it's
the
United
States
doesn't
know
why
it's
in this war, and I really believe that
in
this
war
and
I
really
believe
that
because they've given nine different
because
they've
given
nine
different
explanations, the administration, Iran
explanations
the
administration
Iran
knows why it's doing what it's doing.
knows
why
it's
doing
what
it's
doing
>> It's trying to raise the cost
>>
It's
trying
to
raise
the
cost
>> on Donald Trump so that he ultimately
>>
on
Donald
Trump
so
that
he
ultimately
stops bombing.
stops
bombing
>> Well, you see immediately as soon as gas
>>
Well
you
see
immediately
as
soon
as
gas
prices go up to 379, he's like, we got
prices
go
up
to
379
he's
like
we
got
we're done. We fixed it. Everything is
we're
done
We
fixed
it
Everything
is
good again.
good
again
>> So, they have a coherent and clear
>>
So
they
have
a
coherent
and
clear
strategy that they are pursuing here.
strategy
that
they
are
pursuing
here
And at the moment we have the opposite
And
at
the
moment
we
have
the
opposite
of
of
>> you really think he believed that he
>>
you
really
think
he
believed
that
he
like he cracked the code and now he's
like
he
cracked
the
code
and
now
he's
invincible. I swear to God I knew people
invincible
I
swear
to
God
I
knew
people
cocaine did this to them. This is the
cocaine
did
this
to
them
This
is
the
same. This is how a cocaine person acts.
same
This
is
how
a
cocaine
person
acts
A cocaine person is just like I I'M THE
A
cocaine
person
is
just
like
I
I'M
THE
BEST.
BEST
NO, I can't be stopped. That's what we
NO
I
can't
be
stopped
That's
what
we
have.
have
>> I I couldn't put it better. Yes.
>>
I
I
couldn't
put
it
better
Yes
>> Well, thank you. Uh
>>
Well
thank
you
Uh
well your podcast they go over all this
well
your
podcast
they
go
over
all
this
stuff. You got to check out his podcast
stuff
You
got
to
check
out
his
podcast
the long game with Jake Sullivan and
the
long
game
with
Jake
Sullivan
and
John Feiner. Jake Sullivan thank you for
John
Feiner
Jake
Sullivan
thank
you
for
joining us.
joining
us
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