Watch and Learn - Sen. Mark Kelly - “I’m Not Backing Down”

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Great to be here.

Great to be here

>> So,

>> So

how was your day?

how was your day

>> Uneventful.

>> Uneventful

>> Good. Uh,

>> Good Uh

>> now big surprise this morning.

>> now big surprise this morning

>> Big surprise. Uh, I was going to be

>> Big surprise Uh I was going to be

talking to you all about subsidies for

healthcare and then this morning uh if

you could just explain uh very quickly

uh secretary of whatever he wants to

call it, Pete Hagsth.

call it Pete Hagsth

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah

>> Uh censored you, stripped you of some

>> Uh censored you stripped you of some

What exactly did he do? Well, first let

What exactly did he do Well first let

me let me back up to November. Myself

me let me back up to November Myself

and some of my colleagues, we put out a

and some of my colleagues we put out a

little video and we just said to members

of the military, do don't follow illegal

of the military do don't follow illegal

orders. We stated the law,

orders We stated the law

>> right?

>> right

>> Donald Trump didn't like that.

>> Donald Trump didn't like that

>> About five of you guys, six of you guys.

>> About five of you guys six of you guys

>> Yeah. Six of us. Yeah. Video a little.

>> Yeah Six of us Yeah Video a little

It was like, you know, the imagine video

It was like you know the imagine video

for senators, but okay. I was with you.

for senators but okay I was with you

>> We thought it was would get like no

reaction. Donald Trump said I should be

reaction Donald Trump said I should be

hanged, executed, prosecuted. Wow.

hanged executed prosecuted Wow

>> And then when the hanging thing, I guess

>> And then when the hanging thing I guess

they couldn't figure out how to do that.

they couldn't figure out how to do that

You know, setting up the gallows in

You know setting up the gallows in

front of the capital didn't work out so

well.

well

>> God,

>> God

>> five years ago.

>> five years ago

>> So then they got the minion Pete

Hegstaff.

Hegstaff

>> Yes.

>> Yes

>> By the way,

>> By the way

>> to like try to prosecute.

>> to like try to prosecute

>> I don't know that this is helping you

right now.

right now

>> But here's the thing.

>> But here's the thing

>> All right.

>> All right

>> They're trying to intimidate all of us.

>> They're trying to intimidate all of us

>> Of course,

>> Of course

>> don't say something they don't like. And

>> don't say something they don't like And

especially for members of the military,

especially for members of the military

retired members, right, like me, keep

retired members right like me keep

your mouth shut or they're coming after

you. They're going to take away your

you They're going to take away your

pension. So, this is much bigger than

pension So this is much bigger than

>> they only came after you. Why did they

>> they only came after you Why did they

not come after there? There's five or

not come after there There's five or

six other people in the video.

six other people in the video

>> Kind of technical. I'm retired Navy. I

>> Kind of technical I'm retired Navy I

was in the Navy for 25 years. Okay. So,

was in the Navy for 25 years Okay So

I have a whole career.

I have a whole career

>> So,

>> So

>> so it's it's easy.

>> so it's it's easy

>> They can come after you because you

happen to serve longer.

happen to serve longer

>> Longer. Exactly. Yep. Because I went

>> Longer Exactly Yep Because I went

over 20 years. I'm a retired member of

over 20 years I'm a retired member of

the military. So, they were like, I was

the military So they were like I was

the target. But this is not just about

the target But this is not just about

me, right? And that's why I'm not I'm

me right And that's why I'm not I'm

not backing down from these from these

guys,

guys

>> RIGHT?

>> RIGHT

>> Because John, this is serious. I mean,

>> Because John this is serious I mean

this is

after the senators and I said nothing

and then they'll come after the talk

show host. I promise you that.

show host I promise you that

>> I wouldn't be surprised to see them

threaten,

threaten

>> you know, network television. audience

>> you know network television audience

members.

members

>> Exactly.

>> Exactly

>> Uh,

>> Uh

>> don't clap too hard.

>> don't clap too hard

>> The thing that was weird, don't worry,

>> The thing that was weird don't worry

they don't. Um,

they don't Um

>> uh, the thing that struck me was weird.

>> uh the thing that struck me was weird

There we go.

There we go

>> So, in the message that I saw today, Pet

>> So in the message that I saw today Pet

said, uh, that you were being censored

said uh that you were being censored

because you told service members not to

follow lawful orders.

follow lawful orders

I watched the video. Yeah,

I watched the video Yeah

>> it could have used music. Um,

>> it could have used music Um

>> but I watched the video.

>> but I watched the video

>> You clearly didn't say that.

>> You clearly didn't say that

>> That's right.

>> That's right

>> You said don't follow unlawful orders.

>> You said don't follow unlawful orders

So, what is the due process that what

So what is the due process that what

gives him the ability to strip you of

something

>> when you didn't appear to do what he is

saying that you did?

saying that you did

>> Well, he has been appointed as the

>> Well he has been appointed as the

secretary of defense. Now, let me be

secretary of defense Now let me be

clear about this. Okay,

clear about this Okay

>> this guy is by far the most unqualified

Secretary of Defense this country has

ever had. It's not even close.

ever had It's not even close

>> So, I would pretend first of all, he

>> So I would pretend first of all he

doesn't know what he's doing,

doesn't know what he's doing

>> right?

>> right

>> But there is tremendous power in that

position.

position

>> And in this administration, I mean, the

>> And in this administration I mean the

truth doesn't really matter at this

point. So,

point So

>> you're aware.

>> you're aware

>> They're going to say what they're going

to say. They're going to do to me

to say They're going to do to me

whatever they can figure it out. I I'll

whatever they can figure it out I I'll

I'll fight it. Like I've got

I'll fight it Like I've got

>> So is this is an executive order. Is

>> So is this is an executive order Is

this a legal process? Are they laying

this a legal process Are they laying

out evidence again? Because I read if if

out evidence again Because I read if if

I may

>> uh this is a a memo that you received.

>> uh this is a a memo that you received

This is not the official memo. This is

This is not the official memo This is

>> well actually

>> from my printer. No, but this is uh but

>> from my printer No but this is uh but

but I want to say uh this is why they're

saying that you were uh being censored.

saying that you were uh being censored

uh you identified yourself as a captain

in the United States Navy and stated uh

we want to speak directly members of the

military. This administration is pitting

military This administration is pitting

our uniform military against American

citizens. You can refuse illegal orders.

citizens You can refuse illegal orders

You must refuse illegal orders. That

You must refuse illegal orders That

sounds like

>> what we what we said

>> what you

>> and that's the law. You said you were

>> and that's the law You said you were

telling them to uh refuse lawful orders,

telling them to uh refuse lawful orders

>> which is not true. But there's also

>> which is not true But there's also

stuff in there that's ridiculous. He he

stuff in there that's ridiculous He he

goes on to say uh and and this is the

part that I thought was sort of uh

bonkers.

bonkers

On November 20th, 2025, you issued a

On November 20th 2025 you issued a

joint statement defending the video and

reinforcing your call for refusal of

what you characterize as unlawful

orders. Well, you didn't characterize it

orders Well you didn't characterize it

that way. That's what you said. You

that way That's what you said You

criticize military leadership for firing

admirals and generals in quotations and

surrounding themselves with yesmen, also

surrounding themselves with yesmen also

in quotations, asserting you would, and

in quotations asserting you would and

they bolded this, always defend the

they bolded this always defend the

Constitution.

Constitution

>> And in that Constitution,

>> And in that Constitution

in Article One, I'm in the United States

in Article One I'm in the United States

Senate. I'm on the Armed Services

Senate I'm on the Armed Services

Committee. My job is oversight. I voted

Committee My job is oversight I voted

for those admirals and generals. They

for those admirals and generals They

fired him and

>> this guy's surrounded by a bunch of

yesmen. They didn't like that I said

yesmen They didn't like that I said

that.

that

>> But you're a United States senator and

if you go on the floor of the Senate and

say the Secretary of Defense is

surrounded by yesmen, they can go that's

surrounded by yesmen they can go that's

it.

>> Your pension is gone and your rank is

gone.

gone

>> That is what they're trying to do. I am

>> That is what they're trying to do I am

going to do everything in my power not

to allow THEM TO DO THAT.

to allow THEM TO DO THAT

I I it's

what's so interesting to me is this

entire episode speaks of something

inherent in the character of this

administration and that is fragility.

administration and that is fragility

I don't think I've ever seen strength

portrayed in this manner. This smacks of

portrayed in this manner This smacks of

weakness and fear.

weakness and fear

When people have the power and and the

respect, they don't need to be petty.

respect they don't need to be petty

This is petty.

This is petty

>> It's a reflection of the person at the

top. It always is

top It always is

>> in any organization. Uh I've I've run

>> in any organization Uh I've I've run

things before in my career. I was a

things before in my career I was a

commander of the space shuttle. I had,

commander of the space shuttle I had

you know, adhered to a set of values

you know adhered to a set of values

with my people and I wanted certain

stuff out of them. I expected things. I

stuff out of them I expected things I

also, in my case, I expected them and

also in my case I expected them and

demanded that they they often disagree

with me.

with me

>> Uh that's not this president. And I

>> Uh that's not this president And I

think he's got a major ego problem. I

think he's got a major ego problem I

mean, here's a guy who uh avoided the

mean here's a guy who uh avoided the

draft. I mean,

draft I mean

>> five times.

>> five times

>> Yeah. He puts his name on. The only

>> Yeah He puts his name on The only

other people that put their name on

everything are 8-year-olds going to

camp. Like this is

camp Like this is

>> he just writes his name on every

>> Kim Jong-un.

>> Kim Jong-un

>> Yes.

>> Yes

>> And Stalin.

>> And Stalin

>> But let me ask you, so is there anything

>> But let me ask you so is there anything

in retrospect when you think about the

video because it is the idea that no one

was going to react to it? Probably

was going to react to it Probably

doesn't seem realistic when members of

the United States and make a direct

appeal to camera to service members like

that's going to get attention especially

in this environment. Is there anything

in this environment Is there anything

that you would do differently about that

video? Forgetting about now not, you

video Forgetting about now not you

know, not cowing before somebody

know not cowing before somebody

threatening your speech, but in

threatening your speech but in

retrospect, was it the right way to send

retrospect was it the right way to send

the message you wanted to send?

the message you wanted to send

>> It was the right way. And the only thing

>> It was the right way And the only thing

I would change is what you said earlier,

I would change is what you said earlier

better music. That is it.

better music That is it

>> Can I tell you my because the the

message, you know, was important right

message you know was important right

now. It was especially important. Let me

now It was especially important Let me

tell you why. This president when he was

tell you why This president when he was

running in 2016 talked about killing the

family members of terrorists, right?

family members of terrorists right

>> That means women and children, murdering

>> That means women and children murdering

children, right?

children right

>> He also talked about shooting US

citizens in the legs. He has recently

citizens in the legs He has recently

talked about sending US troops into

cities for the military to train.

cities for the military to train

>> He's done it

>> and well and then train on US citizens.

>> and well and then train on US citizens

What does that mean?

What does that mean

>> Right. Right. Right. So as a member of

>> Right Right Right So as a member of

>> you thought there was an urgency.

>> you thought there was an urgency

>> I felt an obligation

>> an obligation to send a message and also

to stand up to this president. If I may,

to stand up to this president If I may

the the thing about it that maybe struck

me, if I may be slightly critical, is it

me if I may be slightly critical is it

felt like people in power in our

government putting the onus of

the knowledge of the nuance of that type

of law on the in the hands of rank and

file that I worry that putting that

burden on like I don't know the ins and

outs of whether the strikes on those

boats are illegal or legal. And I would

boats are illegal or legal And I would

assume that there are probably a lot of

soldiers who might not. Isn't there

soldiers who might not Isn't there

something to senators taking on that

task themselves and not necessarily

maybe outsourcing it to rank and file

that might not be as versed in what is

legal and what isn't. Isn't that a hard

legal and what isn't Isn't that a hard

decision for them?

decision for them

>> Well, let me explain this as plainly.

>> Well let me explain this as plainly

Yeah.

Yeah

>> Plainly as I can. This is a question

>> Plainly as I can This is a question

about what would a reasonable person

think under these circumstances.

think under these circumstances

>> Is that the standard? It's not nuanced.

>> Is that the standard It's not nuanced

It's not complicated. If a reasonable

It's not complicated If a reasonable

person would think that this thing that

they are asking me to do is illegal, you

they are asking me to do is illegal you

have an obligation not it's not an

option. You have an obligation not to

option You have an obligation not to

follow those orders.

follow those orders

>> So, are the boat strikes illegal?

>> So are the boat strikes illegal

>> Well, so I've been asking this question

>> Well so I've been asking this question

for a long time. on them on the armed

for a long time on them on the armed

services and the intelligence committee.

services and the intelligence committee

They have some complicated legal

>> rationale 40 pages of why these are

legal. It's questionable at best. And by

legal It's questionable at best And by

the way,

the way

>> that's my

>> at first it was fentanyl, then it was

>> at first it was fentanyl then it was

cocaine, then it was about regime

cocaine then it was about regime

change, then it was about oil.

change then it was about oil

>> I understand.

>> I understand

>> So, but what I'm do do you see my point?

>> So but what I'm do do you see my point

You yourself.

You yourself

>> I don't point our point to members of

the military who don't get reminded of

this often. when something is clearly

this often when something is clearly

unlawful, you have an obligation not to

unlawful you have an obligation not to

follow, right,

follow right

>> those orders. It's a pretty simple

>> those orders It's a pretty simple

thing. And we've seen in our history,

thing And we've seen in our history

multiple times when even under those

circumstances, members of the military

circumstances members of the military

have done stuff that was clearly over

the line. We did not want that to

the line We did not want that to

happen.

happen

>> Under the Obama administration, they did

>> Under the Obama administration they did

extrajudicial killings of an American

citizen through drone strikes. Like we

citizen through drone strikes Like we

criticize that. That's my point is

criticize that That's my point is

there's enough gray area in some of

these actions. I mean, is any of this

these actions I mean is any of this

legal under the AUM, you know, under

legal under the AUM you know under

under

>> there's no AUMF for Venezuela right now?

>> there's no AUMF for Venezuela right now

No authorization.

No authorization

>> But everybody everybody is grabbing

these authorizations that were given

during the war on terror and justifying

bombings in Libya and justifying. My

bombings in Libya and justifying My

question to you is,

question to you is

and this has been something that's been

been somewhat difficult for Democrats to

feel,

feel

>> there's a helplessness,

>> there's a helplessness

>> right? And what we're hearing is, you

>> right And what we're hearing is you

guys got to fight back. You got to

guys got to fight back You got to

resist this. You're in the army, you've

resist this You're in the army you've

got to resist the illegal orders. You're

got to resist the illegal orders You're

in the streets, you've got to take to

in the streets you've got to take to

the streets. And we're looking at

the streets And we're looking at

Washington and going, you got Chuck

Washington and going you got Chuck

Schumer going, we're very, very,

Schumer going we're very very

it gets me. I get a little gassy. Like

it gets me I get a little gassy Like

it's can can you understand why as an

outside observer totally it's really

frustrating and an abdication of of

leadership. It seems

leadership It seems

>> it it is incredibly frustrating and I

understand why the American people are

freaked out, frustrated, unhappy,

freaked out frustrated unhappy

>> unhappy with the Republicans. Unhappy

>> unhappy with the Republicans Unhappy

with us, right?

with us right

>> We have to do better. We have we have to

>> We have to do better We have we have to

address the issues that matter to the

American people right now. Venezuela is

American people right now Venezuela is

not solving their problem in trying to

pay their rent, right,

pay their rent right

>> or buy groceries or put their kids

through school. That's not the focus

through school That's not the focus

that this president should have right

now. And it certainly will not be the

now And it certainly will not be the

focus.

focus

>> You know, hopefully after 2026 or after

>> You know hopefully after 2026 or after

2028 when we have different people in

charge, we can solve a lot of these

charge we can solve a lot of these

problems. These are some of them are

problems These are some of them are

challenging, but but I I feel that when

challenging but but I I feel that when

Democrats are in charge, we often try to

Democrats are in charge we often try to

address issues that matter to the

American people. What this president is

American people What this president is

doing is he's enriching himself, his

doing is he's enriching himself his

family members, his friends, his cabinet

family members his friends his cabinet

members,

members

>> oil company executives who

>> that was my favorite part multiple

times.

times

>> He didn't brief Congress, but he briefed

>> He didn't brief Congress but he briefed

the oil executives. But in that sense,

the oil executives But in that sense

do you think Congress still has have

they abdicated their uh role as a

co-equal branch of government to the

point that you're not going to be able

to get that back? Even if Democrats

to get that back Even if Democrats

don't get a super majority in the Senate

and regain the House,

and regain the House

what role do they have in possibly

stopping all of this? There's a huge

stopping all of this There's a huge

difference between where we are now and

yes,

yes

>> Congress has abdicated its authority.

>> Congress has abdicated its authority

>> Even the idea that they're having a vote

on whether or not uh to continue the

authorization for force in Venezuela.

authorization for force in Venezuela

Like why have we over these past decades

just allowed executives to take these

militaristic actions with no

repercussions?

repercussions

>> Weak members of Congress that has have

allowed that to happen over the years.

allowed that to happen over the years

What are their names? It should not have

What are their names It should not have

happened.

happened

>> Which ones? Name them. I think one of

>> Which ones Name them I think one of

them was on that plane standing.

them was on that plane standing

>> He's he's very happy to do it.

>> He's he's very happy to do it

>> But let me let me just say you you

talked about supermajority. Yeah.

talked about supermajority Yeah

>> We don't need that.

>> We don't need that

>> We need to win. We need to win elections

>> We need to win We need to win elections

in 2026. We need people to show up and

in 2026 We need people to show up and

vote. And uh if we can take control of

vote And uh if we can take control of

the House and the Senate, we've got

the House and the Senate we've got

tremendous power to put this president

in check to call people down and have

investigations and consequences for the

actions that he is taking. Do you know I

actions that he is taking Do you know I

think do you believe that if Congress

were to uh take back whatever those

recisions were on appropriations that

had already been made or they they did

those votes?

those votes

>> Mhm.

>> Mhm

>> Do you think he would abide by them?

>> Do you think he would abide by them

because it's very clear like for

instance in the Tik Tok situation uh

Congress voted so that Tik Tok had to be

uh shut down

>> and he or sold

>> and he just gave it to one of his

friends.

friends

>> Yes.

>> Yes

>> So and he didn't sell it when he was

supposed to sell it. So I guess my

supposed to sell it So I guess my

question is what mechanisms I'm trying

to figure out what the mechanisms are

anymore because in the old days it was

impeachment. That's clearly now a flawed

impeachment That's clearly now a flawed

political process as well. What What are

political process as well What What are

the

>> It's certainly better if we have levers

of power. Right now we don't.

of power Right now we don't

>> Right.

>> Right

>> And then the the other thing I think

that's unprecedented about the situation

we find ourselves in is the president of

the United States is a convicted felon.

the United States is a convicted felon

>> 34 felonies,

>> 34 felonies

>> right?

>> right

>> But they view that as an illegitimate

process. That's part of the issue. He

process That's part of the issue He

was tried by a jury. It's not

was tried by a jury It's not

illegitimate.

illegitimate

>> Do you deal with him at all? Do you have

>> Do you deal with him at all Do you have

any any personal interaction with the

president or with the people on his

staff or with uh even Thoon? Like do any

staff or with uh even Thoon Like do any

of them is there any communication?

of them is there any communication

>> Well, he he he called for me to be

>> Well he he he called for me to be

hanged. He did not invite me to play

hanged He did not invite me to play

golf the next day.

golf the next day

>> Yes.

>> Yes

>> So the answer to I can't imagine.

>> So the answer to I can't imagine

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah

>> But that's what I mean. Is there does

>> But that's what I mean Is there does

sen does Senator Thun come up to you and

say he knows you.

say he knows you

>> He knows your heart. He knows the

>> He knows your heart He knows the

service you've given to this country.

service you've given to this country

No, not I mean usually I don't get into

No not I mean usually I don't get into

details about what John Thun did not say

that to me.

that to me

>> Did anyone I mean when when the

president of the United States

>> Yes.

>> Yes

>> threatens you specifically for doing

something you didn't do

>> right.

>> right

>> Do any of them say, "Hey man, I know you

>> Do any of them say Hey man I know you

were uh in the Navy for 25 years. I know

were uh in the Navy for 25 years I know

how much you've given to this country.

how much you've given to this country

Yes.

Yes

>> I'm so sorry. Let me see what I can do

>> I'm so sorry Let me see what I can do

to broker this." Well, some of them like

to broker this Well some of them like

Lisa Marowsky as an example came out

publicly very strongly. Just today, Tom

publicly very strongly Just today Tom

Tillis,

Tillis

>> right?

>> right

>> You know, basically said that letter,

>> You know basically said that letter

>> he said that's a bunch of

>> right?

>> right

>> Just I'm paraphrasing, right,

>> Just I'm paraphrasing right

>> for Senator?

>> for Senator

>> Yeah. He said that's a bunch of

>> Yeah He said that's a bunch of

And then I have I have other

folks that come up to me and say, hey,

folks that come up to me and say hey

yeah, this is really this is ridiculous.

yeah this is really this is ridiculous

And I would say to them, hey, are you

And I would say to them hey are you

gonna say something publicly? And

gonna say something publicly And

they'll say, well, this is a food fight.

they'll say well this is a food fight

When it turns into a knife fight, I'll

When it turns into a knife fight I'll

say something publicly.

say something publicly

>> So, I don't know if today's the

>> So I don't know if today's the

>> knife fight than I want him hanged.

>> knife fight than I want him hanged

Like, how much more knifey does it get?

Like how much more knifey does it get

>> Yeah. Well, maybe this maybe this is it.

>> Yeah Well maybe this maybe this is it

I don't know. We'll we'll find out.

I don't know We'll we'll find out

>> So, what is the process now? What do you

>> So what is the process now What do you

what what has to happen? You go through

what what has to happen You go through

an appeals process.

an appeals process

>> Um there's a second part to this when

they decide, you know, details about

they decide you know details about

what they're going to do, how they're

what they're going to do how they're

going to demote me, and then there's an

going to demote me and then there's an

appeals process. I guess I can, you

appeals process I guess I can you

know, file a federal lawsuit, but I I

know file a federal lawsuit but I I

will do um everything that's appropriate

in this circumstance to make sure that

they know that this is unacceptable,

they know that this is unacceptable

that they cannot do this to people, but

that they cannot do this to people but

also to make sure that the American

people know that you you can't be

stifling people's freedom of speech. We

stifling people's freedom of speech We

have a right in our country to speak out

about the government, to say things

about the government to say things

about the president.

about the president

They can't take that away from us. You

They can't take that away from us You

know what I just realized? Maybe the

know what I just realized Maybe the

better strategy would be don't be a

senator to speak out. If you really want

senator to speak out If you really want

freedom in this country, be a CEO of an

freedom in this country be a CEO of an

oil company or run an AI company because

they apparently have cart blanch to do

whatever they want to do.

whatever they want to do

>> That's who he surrounds himself with,

>> That's who he surrounds himself with

>> right? You know, my my understanding

>> right You know my my understanding

he's got his cabinet members and he's

got CEOs right around him and that is

it. Well, we're living in the upside

it Well we're living in the upside

down when a person that has given his

entire life to public service in America

at great cost not just to yourself but

to your wife who is Representative Gabby

Gfords who's also here tonight

>> and and has uh uh given so much she'll

take a take a shot there. There we go.

take a take a shot there There we go

yeah,

yeah

>> it's it's a remarkable thing that's

happened in this country where where

your service has turned against you and

the sacrifice that your family has gone

through and the activism. It's it's

through and the activism It's it's

really it's dispiriting,

really it's dispiriting

>> but

>> it is. We're going to get through it,

>> it is We're going to get through it

though. Well, I know you will because

though Well I know you will because

we're gonna continue incredibly

resilient and and the people support you

and uh we really appreciate you being

here on the program.

here on the program

>> Thank you very much. See you tomorrow,

>> Thank you very much See you tomorrow

Kelly.

Kelly

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